Nicole Christie | I Am Here For Me: My Conversation with Kelly Henderson on the Velvet’s Edge podcast

Season Three
Written By Nicole Christie

We're doing something a little different with this episode—Nicole is in the guest chair! Kelly Henderson, host of the Velvet’s Edge podcast, and Nicole dive deep into Nicole's riveting personal story of overcoming narcissistic abuse, finding authenticity, and starting over. In addition to sharing her insights on the damaging effects of abusive relationships, Nicole also reveals how her battle with health issues, including a debilitating virus and eye cancer, led her to reassess her life and relationships. This ultimately led Nicole to leave her corporate career and her marriage, launch a business and podcast, and dedicate herself to healing through therapy, storytelling, and music. Kelly and Nicole also open up about their similar experiences with narcissistic abuse, emphasizing the importance of recognizing how others’ behavior impacts us and sharing how these dynamics played out in their lives.

Show Notes:

  • Nicole: [00:00:03] Hey everyone, it's Nicole. We're doing something a little different with this episode. Over the last year, I've been interviewed on other podcasts, and I wanted to give you a taste of Here For Me on that side of the mic. So we're airing an episode of the Velvet’s Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, with me in the guest chair.

    I wanted to share it for a couple of reasons. One, because Kelly and I dive into some details of my story that I haven't discussed on Here For Me. And two, I wanted to introduce you to Kelly, who will join us on Here For Me in January. She'll be the first episode in our Revive mini season, discussing her journey back to herself after a falling out with a friend in the public eye, which led her to recognize she'd been abandoning herself in relationships throughout her life.

    For now, I'm excited for you to meet Kelly in the interviewer's chair. She is thoughtful, empathetic, and not afraid to go deep, just like we do on Here For Me. So if this is your first time listening to her show, I'm betting it won't be the last.

    Finally, I wanted to share some exciting news. Our team is heading to LA this weekend for the Voice Arts Awards, where Here For Me is nominated for Outstanding Podcast. We are so honored and could not have done this without your support. It means the world to me and to the incredible team that produces this show. As always, thanks for listening, subscribing and sharing.

    And now here's Kelly and me in conversation on Velvet's Edge.

    Kelly: [00:01:36] Nicole Christie is here. A writer, podcaster and entrepreneur with a passion for storytelling, she is the founder and CEO of Tulla Productions. She's also the host of the Here For Me podcast.

    I love that your bio says you are a storyteller with a hint of hippie.

    Nicole: [00:01:54] That's why I have Midwestern roots. But I was raised in the Northwest in Seattle, and then now I live in San Diego, so I've got some West Coast hippie vibes.

    Kelly: [00:02:03] Yeah, that makes sense to me then, a storyteller with a sense of hippie.

    Well, it is Mental Health Awareness Month. And so whenever we initially started this conversation, I thought this would be the perfect month to have you on. I love your story because you, to me, are the definition of taking your pain and turning it into purpose, which for mental health and in my experience in life, has been such a healing part of anything that's ever, you know, quote unquote terrible that's ever happened in my life.

    Using it then to help others or give myself a sense of purpose has been immensely healing. So I hear so much of that in your story. And then we were also just talking a little bit before, and I want to get into this in a little bit, but you are starting the conversation, or having the conversation, about narcissistic abuse and kind of your experience with that.

    And as I said to you before, that is such an important conversation to me. And I feel like it's starting to become, you know, more prevalent. But it's also, narcissist is a buzzword. And so there's a lot of like overuse of it.

    So I want to dive into kind of the specifics of what your experience was, what your recovery was like and what you've learned from that.

    But before we get started with all of that, let's kind of go back because you were in the corporate world for many years at a company I'm sure you guys have heard of Microsoft. It's kind of a big one. So can you talk us through your journey from just learning that you love words and kind of storytelling, getting into the corporate world, and then the moment that it all changed for you when you had some health scares.

    Nicole: [00:03:41] Yeah. So I've been a writer since I was very little. It was something I knew I wanted to do as a career from like second grade. And, you know, you always think you're going to be an author or a screenwriter. And I certainly have dabbled in those. I…journalism, went to school and studied journalism, and then got out of that and sort of found my way early in my career to Microsoft in the communication space. So specifically, I was doing employee communications and executive communications.

    So it's, you know, I had a real passion for employees feeling like they are valued. And employee communications gave me the opportunity to do that. And then executive communications, you're working with senior leaders kind of on their platform, if you will, and their thought leadership. So how do they talk to employees? How do they talk to the press? So that was kind of my focus.

    I ended up, I had two lifetimes at Microsoft. So I left, I went to New York, I was in New York for about five years and worked at a consulting firm for ten months. And I knew that I'd always wanted to work for myself as a storyteller and writer and communicator. And that was kind of the first impetus to go out and start my own business doing this, which I did for a while. And then I went back to Microsoft, knowing I wanted to shift to a different type of storytelling, and I didn't really know what that was going to be something different in the com space.

    So went back to Microsoft in 2017, and about two years in had the opportunity to host a talk show series for the company called Modern Communications. That ended up leading to my leadership saying, we want to start a podcast about the manager journey at Microsoft and how that's evolving. Would you be interested in hosting it? Because we want to talk to leaders at Microsoft and have them tell their personal story about managing people. And I was like, yeah, and really candid conversations, the kind that I now have on Here For Me.

    So that planted the seed for, oh, you know, and also studied improv in New York and performed improv. So I was like, everything sort of coming together in this very authentic way. And, and I knew that I wanted to do this more with conversations and talking with people.

    And then in 2019, I had the first of two back-to-back health crises. So I got a virus called hand, foot and mouth disease, which is very common in children. No one knows how I got it. I don't have children. I hadn't been near any children and I was ridiculously stressed out.

    My then husband and I were about to move to San Diego together. We'd been long distance for seven and a half years. It was a huge thing. A lot was happening in my job. I was really stressed and my body, what they believe was a stress induced autoimmune response, just attacked itself and turned into a secondary condition called erythema multiforme.

    And I lost six layers of skin and all of my toenails over the course of about 1 or 2 weeks, and it took a full nine months before I looked normal, before I could walk normally because it started to eat into the connective tissue.

    I was in the hospital for a week on IV nutrients and hydration and meds and all of this. So it took awhile to fully heal from that. And then March 2020 is when I was finally like, oh, I feel like I'm healed. Still took two years for all my toenails to come back normally.

    But and then, you know, pandemic like, I'm living in San Diego. So, you know, we had the lockdown and and then I found something in my eye that turned out to be eye cancer. I wasn't able to be diagnosed until July of 2020 because no one was seeing anyone unless you had a life threatening condition.

    So yeah, this whole, you know, this upheaval that happened in my life made me really look at what am I doing? I felt like those were two big wake up calls, and it was sort of this metaphysical, you know, with my eye. It was my left eye. It was like, oh, I think I'm not seeing things clearly.

    And I started to sort of look at the circumstances around me. I started to see that I was allowing multiple people in my life to really what I came to know of as narcissistic abuse, but really emotionally and verbally abusive circumstances that I was putting up with, that I was people pleasing, not wanting to hurt people's feelings, having great empathy for people because maybe they were in a difficult circumstance.

    And so I would make myself smaller, dim my light to make sure that they felt okay, or make them feel better when they were hurting me because I'm like, well, hurt people hurt people, right? And so that was really the the wake up call for me.

    And it took a while, like I did not heal. I wasn't declared cancer free until June of 2021. So it was really about a 15 month period from finding that to having multiple surgeries and multiple immunotherapy treatments until I was declared cancer free. And I knew in that moment some things have to change in your life.

    And it still took another 15 months beyond that for me to leave my work, start my business, start my podcast, which I knew I was in a position to have conversations that hopefully facilitated healing through my own storytelling and the stories of others. Um, and I knew that, you know, my marriage was in a serious state of disrepair and was not the right thing for me to be in. But it did, it took a while before I was able to both leave the job, start the business, and get on this healing path both in my work and my purpose and contribution to the world, and also in my relationships.

    Kelly: [00:08:58] Yeah. Wow. I mean, first of all, I want to just say to the listeners, I'm looking at you right now, and I would have never known any of those situations had happened. That is crazy. Yeah, the skin stuff.

    Nicole: [00:09:11] Oh, yeah. The skin. I mean, I have a little bit of scars here, but no one, when I show it to them, like I wouldn't have known.

    Kelly: [00:09:16] But your eyes look great.

    Nicole: [00:09:18] Yeah, ultimately I had half of my lower lid removed, so I had conjunctival cancer, which is like the skin of your eye. So it's sort of like skin cancer, but because it's the lining of your eye and it's basically mucus, and it's also very close to your brain and your head and neck, lymph nodes, that's what they're worried about.

    Normally a skin cancer, they'd be like, oh, we just dig it out and it's fine. But yeah, I had to be under a lot more surveillance. And ultimately, yeah, they tried to do a biopsy, scoop out as much as they could and then treat it with immunotherapy, which was injections right into my eye. It's a big party. I invite all people to join.

    But ultimately, yeah, it came back. It was very aggressive, which is also rare. And they were super concerned about that. So February 2021 they're like it's back and you get to go have half your eyelid removed. So and rebuilt on my tear duct removed. And then you know, amazing, what is called an oculoplastic surgeon here in San Diego, world renowned, I'm so lucky to have been here and had him do that. He literally saved my life, saved my eye. So thank you. That's his work that you're seeing. Wow. Nothing to do with me.

    Kelly: [00:10:25] He's really good at his job.

    Nicole: [00:10:27] Yes, I agree.

    Kelly: [00:10:29] Um, I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but to me, emotions and physical parts of our body are so connected. And I've recently even had an experience with a friend from high school who's going through so many physical ailments, and the doctors can't find it. But I observe in her life so much stress and like exactly what you're describing, the giving. And I know for me it's, you know, caused breakdowns and like it's not unfortunately, sometimes until the crash happens that I'll pay attention.

    Nicole: [00:11:01] Absolutely.

    Kelly: [00:11:01] Can you talk a little bit about maybe what you've learned as far as, like how to stay in touch with your body and in tune with your body even going through life?

    Life is stressful, right? We can't just always avoid stress. But like, what are some of the things that you do now after this experience to be like, yeah, I'll never do this again.

    Nicole: [00:11:21] Oh yeah. I mean, the body is a beacon. Um, and some people more than others certainly I realized going through this that my body had been a beacon for a long time. So most of my life I would I had dealt with migraines, GI issues, mysterious rashes. Like I would just get hives and nobody could really understand why. When I looked back at those instances, I could tie it to very stressful things. Even when I first met my now ex-husband, I broke out in hives a month later, and that went on for like 3 or 4 months.

    Kelly: [00:11:53] I'm only laughing because first of all, I'm nodding. I'm like, yes, yes, yes.

    Nicole: [00:11:57] You get it. We're on the same page.

    Kelly: [00:11:58] But it's also like all of these things will be happening. And you're like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to stay in that relationship.

    Nicole: [00:12:04] Exactly. I and I was chalking it up to other things. Right. Like we, we had we had met in Seattle. You know what he does for a living. You know, he had to move back to where he was going. There's a long story.

    And so he went back to to Montreal. And so I was like, oh, there's all this emotional chaos like, we met and we're in love, and now we have to be long distance. And I was chalking it up to all of that. Oh my God.

    And then, you know, GI stuff was happening for like years with him. that didn't same I would go to the doctor like there's nothing wrong with you.

    So I think paying attention to there's a, there's a lot to be said for how is your body manifesting? And I read something recently about, you know, the body is manifesting things that we don't allow ourselves to feel. So, you know, your emotions or something, you know, it's not always possible to make logical sense or cerebrally process things that are happening in your life. So when your body's talking to you in these mysterious ways, I think it's, what I do is I just check out of everything for a second, and some people may meditate or journal.

    I just need to be quiet. I just need to go to a quiet place and really think about what's happening.

    You know, even just earlier this week, I was like, why am I having this? Like, am I having a heart attack? Like, why am I having this pain? And I realize I'm extremely anxious. I'm not even breathing properly right now. I'm breathing really shallow.

    So just taking time to step away when my body is telling me things weird. And sometimes it truly is a medical issue, I want to be clear about that too. I've certainly had those instances.

    But when you can't describe something like, where in your life are you misaligned? Where are you not paying attention to maybe what path you need to be on, or how someone is treating you, or what your relationship dynamic is? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating? Are you sleeping? All of that? So just really stopping and very intentionally looking at your life. And is there any tie between the two things?

    Kelly: [00:14:00] I love that you said you just stop. I've found so much power in the pause in the past couple of years. It's scary, but it's, it's also very empowering. I would say.

    Nicole: [00:14:11] It's very empowering. And even, you know, we're we're airing the last episode of Season Two Here For Me, my podcast, tomorrow, and I'm announcing that we're taking the summer off and we're going to do audience favorites.

    But I'm freaking out about pausing. I'm freaking out about, you know, this cultural, like, you have to keep moving and, you know, objects in motion stay in motion. And that, you know, me, losing momentum is somehow going to destroy everything. I'm actually that was part of what I tuned into earlier this week.

    I was like, you're afraid to pause. You're afraid to stop. I'm part of that is, I'm afraid to not feel like I'm doing something purposeful, that I'm just going to take somewhere off and it's San Diego. What, screw around at the beach or something? You know, that sounds so amazing. Yeah. Like it is just you're you're right. I mean, it's it's you do just have to go. It's okay to stop and tune in and see what's going on up here. Yeah, I.

    Kelly: [00:15:01] Yeah, I think that's been one of the gifts of Covid in some ways for our culture even, is just to realize how hard, how fast, how much we were going. And then when it all stops or has to stop, you're like, what's actually important? And like, how much of that is made up in my head that I have these deadlines and these like it has to get done today, you know? Yeah. Like the things we put on ourselves.

    Nicole: [00:15:25] Absolutely. Yeah. I mean and Covid, I was going through my cancer journey and Covid at the same time. And so those two things, happening simultaneously, and my husband, um, you know, what he does for a living. He was furloughed for 16 months. So, and we had never lived together. We'd been long distance for our entire relationship.

    So everything happened all at once and forced that pause and forced me to go, okay, my body is talking to me. Things were happening at work that were crazy. Things were happening at home.

    So yeah, Covid did give us a lot of gifts. I don't know that I would be on the other side of a lot of trauma without it. So, you know, I hate to say that there was a silver lining, but you're right.

    Kelly: [00:16:09] Yeah, I do think so. Well, let's dive in a little bit to the narcissistic abuse stuff because, you know, we talked a little bit before and it's like more, I think important to talk about the solution.

    But it is important, also, to say what it was like and kind of how you got where you got.

    So you've mentioned a little bit about the relationship. What I said to you was like, what I want to know is what it felt like for you. Like what did you notice in yourself? Because I know in the situation that I was in, I can look back now and the person that I was was unrecognizable to me.

    Did you, do you relate to that? Like what did it look like for you?

    Nicole: [00:16:49] I totally relate to that. I mean, it's and I talked about this a little bit on the first episode of Season Two of the podcast where I talked about, and I'm sure you feel the same thing, I actually grieved the loss of myself more than I grieved the loss of the relationship.

    Because looking at that woman was so hard, and I and I said, like, I didn't lose myself, but I buried myself in a shallow grave. And then I had to go find her and wake her up and go, aha! Here's what happened while you were asleep. And that loss, I'm like, pretty emotional just talking about this, was so devastating to see how I had allowed myself to abandon myself.

    So what it felt like for me was just forgetting who I was. And, and you know, that I had needs, that I had goals, that I had dreams, that I had desires.

    I just became all about supporting this other person who was very good at convincing me that that was the most important thing in our life.

    And I just, I put everything on the back burner. I questioned my own sanity all the time, which, you know, a therapist will say, that's gaslighting, right? So, you know, like, oh, I don't think that I really thought that or know that you must be right. Or every bit of criticism that came at me.

    Narcissists, and I'm going to preface this, I'm not a mental health professional, but just sharing what I learned in my experience working with the Narcissistic Abuse Recovery therapist. Um, they're good at getting supply and, and making you sort of forget that you have needs, that you are, you know, a carbon being in the household.

    So I was constantly taking criticism in of like, oh, that's a really good point. I hadn't really thought about that or deflection and projection taking that on.

    And then literally I went into therapy for things that I now realize were not problems I had. I think that there was, you know, and this is not just this relationship, but also I've had others, not romantic relationships, but others in my life throughout my lifetime. And most people, if you've been with one narcissist in some way, you've probably been with others in some fashion. Again, it could be a colleague. It could be a friend, could be a family member. A lot of people come from narcissistic parenting, so that could be it for you.

    But realizing that, you know, I was taking on stuff that wasn't mine, but because I'm a person who will shine the light on myself, I'm not afraid of the dark corners. And I'll unpack things and go, huh, I think I need to go to therapy and talk about that. That's how that showed up for me a lot.

    And it's not that some of that criticism wasn't valid. You know, things that I needed to go work out in therapy and unpack. But yeah, it was really just questioning myself. It was a lot of brain fog. And there were signs.

    There were bodily signs. Um, something I realized recently was when I would go visit him and it took 12 hours for us to get to each other door to door, but I would go there for a month. I worked for myself. I had my own business, so I'd go there for a month, I'd come back to Seattle for a month.

    I would cry when the plane would land, and I always thought that it was where he was living and that I hated that place. And visiting there and being like, oh, when are we going to be able to get out of here? And I look back on that, and that's certainly part of it.

    But I think I also knew that I was going to walk into that dynamic for a month. And then, you know, it was so nice for me to go back home to Seattle for a month. And I realized I'd go home and fill my cup and get my energy, and then I'd go there and I'd be drained, and then I'd go home and I'd fill my cup, and then I'd go there and I would be drained.

    And I blamed all of that on external circumstances. And I'm sure you can relate to this. You think it's if only this, if only, you know, his job changed the way he wanted to. Only we didn't live in this place. If only whatever. When those things change.

    And then when we got to San Diego and finally were together, he had a job, or has a job that brought him here. I thought that everything would change. And then you realize, oh, this is all you know, I feel so naive thinking that I don't like to think of myself as someone who's naive. But here we are, together 24/7. Then a pandemic happens and you realize, oh, no, there was a shaky foundation and there were fundamental issues all along.

    Kelly: [00:20:56] Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'm just like [00:21:00] everything you just said, literally. It's like you're telling my story, you know? It's. Yeah.

    And this is the importance, I think, of talking about things like this is so that if anyone's listening and they're hearing some of their story, like you're not alone, you know, there's so much power in sharing for that purpose of just giving it a name, giving it a voice, anything like that.

    You mentioned the brain fog, and one of the questions I was going to ask you is because in my recovery from this situation, I kept saying over and over, I said this to my therapist, to my family, to my friends. I'm like, I just want my brain back. I just want my brain back.

    Like, I had this intense feeling of not being myself, but also just I could not see the road ahead of me like I could not. There was a constant fog every day, and even getting out of bed becomes tough when you're living under that big cloud.

    Nicole: [00:21:49] Yeah, it's absolutely true. And, and, um, I think some of that I don't want to say, you know, a lot of narcissistic behavior is not intentional, right? It's just how someone has learned to walk through the world and get their needs met.

    Kelly: [00:22:06] It’s a survival skill, too.

    Nicole: [00:22:06] Exactly. It's a survival skill. And so it's almost like that's just part of it. Right? Because if you are in that fog and you can't see ahead, you're more available for someone else's needs and supply, and then you feel like you're being useful and there's a purpose to that, or you're helping the relationship along. I can 100% relate to that.

    Kelly: [00:22:25] Yeah, yeah. Um, one of the big pieces for me was also just the recovery, like once you actually. Well, let me ask you this. How hard was it for you to leave that relationship?

    Nicole: [00:22:40] Well, it took a year and a half from the time that I knew there was a last straw that happened in February of 2021.

    Okay. That I won't go into. And that was, it was the night before my last cancer treatment. And I knew in that moment, I cannot stay in this. It's not psychologically safe, um, for me to do so emotionally safe. But I, it was the night before my last cancer treatment. I went the next day and they were like, your cancer is back.

    Great. So, you know, I had to keep my eyes on my recovery for a while. And then, you know, three months later we had the surgery and they said, we got it all. You're cancer free.

    And I just needed to, I literally, I had, you know, girlfriends. I had a few girlfriends that had walked this path with me and knew what was happening.

    Most people did not know what was happening and they were like, okay, so you're cancer free. You're going to go, you're going to go on to your next chapter.

    And I said, I literally need to stick my head in the sand after the last two years of medical issues and pretend that everything is normal. Because I need to get strong again. And the wonderful therapist I was working with at that time said, that's going to seem counterintuitive to you and everybody else, but you can't walk away from this situation on your hands and knees. You're on your hands and knees from a two year health journey.

    So what she worked on with me and she said from the beginning, and I think most, or all, narcissistic abuse recovery therapists will do this. It's not my job to tell you to stay or go. It's my job to give you the emotional toolbox to survive. If not, thrive within the relationship if you stay or to leave it.

    And it took time. So I started working with her in April of 2021 as I was having these surgeries, and then we wrapped up our relationship. We'd worked together for every week for ten months. So January 2022, I was like, I feel like I have all the tools I need and I just need to let it integrate.

    So it was building that toolbox, sticking my head in the sand, and having a proper summer for the first time in two years. And just also, you know, there was still hope. I was still like, well, maybe this toolbox will help me be able to survive it and we can stay together because we work so hard for seven and a half years to get to this point. So it was hard for those reasons.

    And then January 2022, when I said to her, I need to just take a pause on therapy, she was like, great. It was still not until September. It was another nine months of me letting this integrate.

    The other thing I did at that point was I felt like I was emotionally strong. I was like, okay, I can fight this fight now. But I, with two years of health issues, I was like, I need to get my strength physically back.

    So I do like really hardcore crazy Pilates 3 or 4 days a week. And I went to my instructor. It was finally safe to go back from, like a Covid perspective and a health perspective, and I went to her and I said, I want you to kick my ass into the best shape I've ever been in in my life. Because I need to walk into that room when I decide that I'm ready and feel as emotional, as physically strong as I am emotionally strong and didn't have any timeline on that, I just knew that I would know.

    So I'm still now I'm, you know, over a year, February 2021 to like April of 2022. And I'm knowing we're getting close. Yeah, I'm starting to feel like this is, I got to go.

    I will say that producing Here For Me was the thing that finally made me realize, you can't stay in this.

    Writing about being here for yourself and choosing yourself was I mean, it was so emotional to write the first two episodes where I told this story without talking about what was happening in the relationship so much, not specifically, that I actually processed what had been happening for eight years at that point, and also processing what had been happening, you know, between us since we had lived together.

    And I'd been through these health issues, I was like, I can't stay in this. It's, I'm actually going to die. And I did. I shared with someone recently, I felt like I got a message that said you had to wake up calls, you're not getting a third. You're not understanding what I sent you here to do. So one more wake up call, you're getting plucked off the planet.

    Like, I am, yeah, and so I knew, like, you have to, you have to leave this. At that point, this was September of last year, I wouldn't say it was easy to leave, but I knew it was right, and I also knew that I had the strength emotionally to not be reeled back in.

    I think even six months prior, we'd kind of had a sort of coming to Jesus meeting, if you will, March of 2022, or it was like, Hey, some stuff isn't working.

    It was a very calm, rational, but very long, hours-long conversation of this isn't working for me. This wasn't working for him. Let's recommit. Even in March of 2022, I was still prone to being reeled back in.

    September was like, there is nothing. And trust me, there were lots of attempts to get me things I had never seen before. And I was like, I'm not. I'm not staying. This is not working. I have to go.

    And I do believe that it was the right thing for both of us. Honestly, it wasn't just for me. I said, I think there's things, I think we don't bring out the best in each other.

    Um, so, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a long process. So it was really hard to build the emotional toolbox, feel physically strong and healthy, and then have that sort of wake up call moment of producing my podcast that really solidified this message in me.

    And like, I have to live this. Not just because I need congruency with what I'm telling people on my on my show, but like, this is a real thing that's critical to our being aligned selves on this planet.

    Kelly: [00:28:12] Yeah. You know what? I hear so much right now that I'm just really loving, and this has taken me a minute to get to. So if that's just like a full disclosure statement. But I think that especially when you go through something so painful as this kind of situation is, it's very easy to villainize the other, other side. And I don't hear any of that.

    I hear very much like it just wasn't serving you. And that has been a really freeing and healing place for me to get to not feel like, oh my God, I can't believe he's doing this to me because it is insane. It's insane behavior. It's very painful behavior. It, there are certain things that sent me into a place that, like I said to you before the podcast, I was completely unrecognizable to myself. Like the ways I was reacting, all of the things.

    But it just doesn't serve me anymore to sit here and be like that person is the problem. Like us together was a problem for sure in my life. It was, um, and I don't know what his journey is. It's really none of my business, you know? But like, for me, it's been so helpful to just be like, that's a survival skill. It is not one that I want to be in a relationship with, because I don't like the result for me or yourself.

    Nicole: [00:29:33] Exactly. Yeah. And that villainizing piece of it. You're so right about that. I think a lot of people, they were doing that to me too. And it just, it doesn't serve you to do that. I think it also helps to see what is it about myself that attracts these situations, not that you blame yourself.

    An analogy I used on the podcast was, it's like if you're fair skinned and you're prone to sunburn. It's not your fault you’re fair skinned, it’s not the sun's fault that it's going to burn you. You have to put SPF on and stay out of the sun for certain times of the day.

    Nicole: [00:30:03] Use extra caution.

    Nicole: [00:30:04] Yeah, yeah. So just understanding what is it about myself that primed me for that behavior to put up with it? I probably felt and maybe you did as well as you healed, but you I almost felt more shame myself of allowing it. Like once you got.

    Kelly: [00:30:21] And staying and going back. What you talked about. Like I tried to leave so many times, more times than I care to say out loud and for more years than I care to stay out loud. You know, say out loud.

    Nicole: [00:30:32] It's really common.

    Kelly: [00:30:34] It's very common. I'm learning that. But the, whatever you call it, um, I don't know if you called them repair attempts or whatever it was that always amps up. That's what people don't understand. When you actually get enough guts to be like, I got to go. That's when it gets. That's when, like, it really gets hard.

    Nicole: [00:30:50] Because, oh yeah.

    Kelly: [00:30:51] The other side of that is that there's a party that's like, no, you're supply for me and you can't leave. And so like you said, I love that you really are talking about how strong you had to get, because that was sort of where I had to get to like, yeah.

    Mine looked like having to get to the bottom of the barrel, knowing I was going to lose my job, my friends, my like literally everything in my life, my my life. Probably like it was as dramatic as that may sound to people. That is reality.

    Nicole: [00:31:20] It's not dramatic at all. And you realize, like your health is at stake, your mental health, your physical health is at stake when you get the bottom of the barrel is a really great analogy for it, where you're just sitting there going, okay, you know, you don't have anything to lose at that point either. It's like you have to, you know, as we say on Here For Me, you have to choose yourself.

    Kelly: [00:31:40] Yes. The only, the only place I could go from where I was at that worst day. And I had a situation too, there was one day where I just knew, no matter what attempts were made to, to get me to stay like I had to go. But the only two options were death or to go up.

    So it was like, oh, okay, I got to go because, like, I know my life. I actually didn't know that. But I'd had enough experience with recovery and, like kind of getting myself back, to know that, like, life can be better than this and I know that. And so I'm going to trust that, and I'm just going to keep taking the next right step forward.

    Nicole: [00:32:19] Yeah, I'm curious too. Did you find that, you know, your empathy was so out of control for someone else that that also led you to stay?

    Kelly: [00:32:28] All of that. I mean that, to me, has been one of the biggest things I've had to learn to manage. And I don't know if that's the right word to use around empathy, but, um, that's in my nature just to be that way, which is also very common for these kind of dynamics between a narcissist and an empath.

    But that is the way I'm wired. And so I give that freely. And I'm learning now to not give it so freely because a lot of people can't handle that, and they use it against you.

    And it's, it's almost dangerous for me is how I look at it, like it's, you know, I have to be very picky and choosy where I am giving that. But first I have to give it to myself.

    Nicole: [00:33:10] 100% starts with yourself. There was something I wish I could give credit to this, but someone posted, like an Instagram reel or something, and I literally was in tears seeing this.

    But you know, something about I wish someone had warned me that my and I might be paraphrasing a little, but my empathy was going to create a safe harbor for other people's demons.

    I was like, oh, I have to sit and just cry about that, right? Because that sounds like exactly what you were doing.

    I've spent my whole life doing that with friends, family members, colleagues, like feeling sorry for someone else and thinking.

    And I think, you know, I’d been single for the better part of eight years when I met my ex-husband. Like, I dated people and had stupid entanglements and things, but I hadn't had a serious relationship. So I had kind of filled my cup and felt like I am here to give.

    And I was just ripe for, you know, that sort of, that sort of thing. And I hadn't worked through how, how empathy can, can be used against you or, you know, you get involved with people that are going to take advantage. I didn't know anything about that.

    Um, I think the other piece of it I didn't know about, that I really didn't know until I started working with my therapist, was the spectrum of narcissism. Which you mentioned earlier. It's such a popular term. It's almost, you know, like, it's not people with lots of selfies on social media. I mean it can be. But the spectrum of what that would be like, the grandiose end of the spectrum, you know, very flashy, you know, very, you know, egotistical or whatever.

    The other end of it is the covert or vulnerable narcissist that, you know, comes in with some sort of poor me, woe is me. I've had all these terrible things happen. And and that's where you know, you're primed for it if you're an empath. Oh, no, I'm so sorry. Let me help. And then pretty soon you've just lost it. Sounds like you were in the same kind of situation.

    Kelly: [00:35:01] Yeah. And I mean, you do help them. But it's like I helped,I helped them so much that I lost myself and I couldn't help myself anymore.

    And that is where that balance and that dynamic really can get you off.

    And I want to kind of just point out, too, because I don't know if you felt this, you did mention that you had a really good support system of friends. I, I also do I have an amazing support system.

    This, however, was a situation I still felt very isolated in. Like, I don't know that people fully understand this dynamic and how tricky and kind of like, use the word covert with narcissist, but I think it can be this, like subtle. It's so subtle sometimes and it's like just ticking away at a person.

    And I'm sitting here talking to you, thinking, look at all this stuff. Like, you know, your qualifications are very impressive and you as a person are impressive. And I could sit here and be like that. You know what? That doesn't make sense.

    And that's what I had people say to me all the time, you're really strong. You like, look, you have your shit together and it's like, this can happen to anyone. Like, this isn't something that is just because you're weak.

    I think that was like one of the, that's one of the big points I want to make for anyone listening that might be experiencing that this isn't something because you're weak. This like, could take out anybody.

    Nicole: [00:36:26] Oh my god. First of all, thank you for saying that. And I'm honored to be on your show and talking about this.

    It's actually like the opposite. And therapists tell you narcissists don't pick weak people. They pick the best of the bunch because it's the best level of supply.

    So someone like yourself. You're smart, successful, beautiful, you have your shit together. You're an empathic person. Prime. Right. Just. It's like they pick the best and they also want the best, you know? Especially if they're on the grandiose end of the spectrum. They want the best on their arm. Right? Yeah. Reflection of pride. Look at my, you know, significant other who is, you know, all these things.

    So thank you for pointing that out because that is actually exactly what it is. But when you are, I certainly went through it. Sounds like you did as well.

    I literally thought I'm a, I'm a bad person. I am a weak person. I have no self esteem, I have no self-worth. And friends, it is isolating because friends are like this can’t, that's not what's going on, you know.

    Or also just the incredible shame that you feel when you realize it and admitting it to your friends. You feel like, well, so I'm not all of those things, because somehow I got into the situation.

    I had friends that staged an intervention on me, and that didn't go well. Yeah.

    Kelly: [00:37:38] Oh, really?

    Nicole: [00:37:39] Yeah. And then, you know, my therapist was like, this always backfires. The only time that that's helpful in any sort of abusive situation is when someone's life is in danger, when friends need to intervene and get someone out of something that was never what was going on. That sounds like it was probably not what was going for you as well. Yeah. That that that..

    Kelly: [00:37:59] I will say I did have friends basically cut me off a little bit. Not, not in not in our whole friendship, but like to the point where I kept getting back together with him so much that they were like, that's you. You can do that. I can't support that anymore.

    And like, so I talk about the shame, the shame and the embarrassment. And that's where I started to be like, oh my god. And I've kind of even leaned in a little bit further into like my attachment and codependency stuff with that, because it's almost like an addiction.

    You're just so like in the withdrawal. It's like it's literally like a drug addiction. Yep. That until you experience it, it sounds fucking crazy, but like it. Trust me when I say my body went into full withdrawal. It's one of the hardest things I've ever had to do is leave that relationship.

    Nicole: [00:38:52] It's a reason I haven't participated in this program, but I've had therapists recommend it if I need it is Codependents Anonymous. There's a reason there's a 12-step program around it because it's addictive.

    And I also, I'm sure you've done this work as well. Looking back at your childhood, you know, what are the patterns that you, this this is how you were shown what love is.

    And so you tend to pick people who are in the image of your caretakers wherever your caretakers were. It's not always your parents.

    But yeah, if you think that's what love is, you will choose people who reinforce that because our brains like, you know, essentially confirmation bias and learning to break that and also just feeling like you're worthy of something different is a real it's what you said that's real process.

    Kelly: [00:39:41] Yeah. The worthiness, because I was just thinking, I think I knew it wasn't love, but I also was, was so.

    One, in the place of like, I can fix this. That's, you know, had to get out of my ego a little bit and be like, no, you can't, you can't change that one. You can't change [00:40:00] it. Yeah.

    But then also really accepting and, similar to you, I had so many other things happening in my life at the same time that I thought, like my self-worth had gotten so just taken such a hit that I really could not muster up the confidence to be like, I know I deserve more. I know that, like, I'll find a better relationship.

    For me, it was more of the scarcity mindset of like, I'll always be alone. I'll, you know, I had to really get out of those narratives. And that's a really scary place to be when you have no relationship with yourself.

    Nicole: [00:40:33] Exactly. And that and that relationship is eroding that even further, which keeps you more locked in, you’re trauma bonded. Right. People talk about being trauma bonded. It's, you're essentially brainwashed in this situation.

    I also was raised, you know, to believe that life is supposed to be hard. You shouldn't like your work. You know, relationships just are what they are. Hard work into it. Yeah. They're hard.

    And so this, this is maybe my, uh, my Midwestern roots a little bit. Not to criticize my whole family's Midwestern, but, you know, hard knocks, right? Like, we, we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. And so to think that you're actually worth something, nurturing, and and affirming is kind of not what runs in my blood. I'm not saying all Midwestern people are raised that way, but I definitely, definitely was raised with that belief. And that's hard to break, too.

    Kelly: [00:41:23] Yeah. Well, let's I mean, we talked a little bit about your recovery and what that's looked like. What's the main thing that you feel like you learned from being in that relationship?

    Nicole: [00:41:34] I think the biggest thing I learned is what love does not look like.

    I think that was kind of the point of that whole relationship. Because I actually had had pretty good relationships before that, actually, and maybe ones that were almost so innocent that I was also primed for this.

    And suddenly, you know, you learn this lesson in a really big way. Because I just, I don't think that I was getting needs met, but I didn't know that I had any.

    So, and it really, really made me believe that I was worthy of being treated well.

    I was telling someone the other day, I didn't have a bullshit meter at all. It wasn't even that it wasn't finely tuned. I didn't have it because people are like, how did you see all these signs and not know?

    Because I didn't see these signs, or I saw them and I talked to them up to something else. So now I have a very finely tuned bullshit meter.

    I also, you know, if if someone in my life is showing me signs, I immediately, whereas my old reaction would be like, oh, and I would suddenly sort of shrink like, oh, let me I can fix that or it doesn't matter that you're doing this, it doesn't matter because of all these.

    Now I go. Hu-uh, I don't care how cute you are, that's not going to work for me. So that's something I was actually not able to do in the past.

    I don't really deal with passive aggressiveness anymore, which is something even I have seen in myself. So, yeah, I mean, there are definitely things of just being able to show up in the world in a way that serves me, that I never had, that I knew I should have and would try to work on in therapy.

    But until I changed on the inside and actually learned how to choose myself and believe I was worthy, the bullshit meter, you know, calling bullshit, not putting up with shitty behavior, people being passive aggressive like, or not being honest about things, I couldn't even I couldn't even cultivate that skill set.

    And now it's come naturally to the point where I shock myself when it happens. I think I could never do that. So yeah, yeah, in all aspects of life. Yeah, that's that's huge. It's things that, you know, people would be like, why don't you just “X” right? And I would be like, I don't, I don't know how to do that you know. So yeah.

    Kelly: [00:44:01] You mentioned that if you have faced this or you're feeling like you're facing this in like a romantic capacity, you've probably dealt with it in others.

    And that was me too. It was like, also the way the universe works. It's like, okay, I'm going to give you a sign, you know, maybe pay attention. And I'm like, oh, la de da de da. I'm breaking out in rashes. But whatever, I'm going to stay in this relationship and, you know, things like that.

    But then also for me, it's like the universe comes in and they're like, okay, well, you're not getting this here. So we're going to give it to you here and here all at the same time so that we can get your attention and you pay attention.

    So what other parts did you start to see the same behaviors in yourself like around your whole life?

    Nicole: [00:44:46] Like putting up with narcissistic behavior? At the time that I was going through this with my ex, I had a colleague. So I was literally getting it from both sides almost 24 hours a day, except when I was asleep.

    And I didn't recognize that either. I was like, and then when I started doing this treatment, I was like, oh my god, I'm going to work and I'm getting it from her. And then I'm at home, which in the pandemic is both things, home all the time. But I'm getting it from him and also lots of friends.

    Over the years, girlfriends over the years, I started to look back and go, oh, you know, friendships that I don't have any longer that I thought had fallen apart for others. I was dealing with narcissistic behavior.

    And my therapist, and I want to point this out for everyone, was really good about saying, I'm not diagnosing anyone as a narcissist. I can't do that.

    But recognizing narcissistic behavior, whether or not the person is actually classified as that, is really all that matters. It's behavior that you, is bringing, not bringing out the best in you.

    So yeah, I mean, it was, it was mostly like friends and, and colleagues,like I have been primed for this. And I think, you know, my parents are very loving and gentle people, but they didn't really give me any conflict resolution skills. I was very much raised to turn the other cheek, which is not a bad thing to be raised.

    But because of that, and I'm not pointing the finger at them, but I definitely put up with this a lot because I was like, well, that's just what you do. You have grace for people and you, you know, embrace them. And you see that hurt people, hurt people.

    And so, yeah, I mean, I definitely from, from childhood on, I can go all the way back to like elementary school and see where there were, there were kids who were exhibiting these kinds of behaviors. And I was kind of a bucket for it.

    Kelly: [00:46:28] Yeah. Once you start to kind of like unravel or pull the tape back or whatever you want to say, it's like, wait a second.

    Nicole: [00:46:36] Wait a minute.

    Kelly: [00:46:36] This goes back 40 years now, like. I'm just starting to see this.

    I love that your therapist was like, I can't diagnose, you know, whatever, because obviously she or he hasn't met the people. And so that's not a fair thing.

    And I actually have gotten to the place where I'm like, I'm not sure it matters what they are or what their label is or anything like that. How am I reacting?

    And there is a point in my body that now I identify with, okay, I don't feel safe. And to me I'm like, I don't need to know anything else. I don't need to know what your name is, what your whatever. Like I just have to turn and walk away. And I've done it now multiple times in dating and in work situations and it's new. So it's like I don't do it perfectly, but like, sure, talk about freeing and comforting and showing up for yourself is like, honestly, one of the best feelings I can imagine in this lifetime.

    Nicole: [00:47:30] Oh my god. I mean, I think you just encapsulated it so perfectly, which is any time that you don't feel good. And don't mean like it doesn't feel good to have to do my taxes, right?

    Kelly: [00:47:43] You still have to be an adult and like.

    Nicole: [00:47:44] Yeah, you know, this isn't an excuse, yeah, for being irresponsible.

    But you're with a person or in a place or in a situation and you don't feel, you used the best word for it, you don't feel safe emotionally. You don't feel…you feel bad in this presence. You don't have to be, you don't have to do the thing, you don't have to go to the place, you don't have to be with the person. Like you, tuning in to that in your body is such a good place to return. And I'm. And I'm with you.

    I still am, you know, two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, two steps back. Sit down, have a cry about it because you just failed. Sometimes that's what I'm doing. Sometimes, you know. But, yeah, being gentle with yourself as you cultivate new skill sets.

    I think it might be, I might be misattributing it, Yung Pueblo or someone, you know, said, like, you know, part of, part of when you are adopting healthy behaviors and when you're healing.

    The first thing you'll do is react from the wounded place and go, oops, I should have done this. Then you'll be like, oh, I reacted, you know, from the healed place. And now I feel guilty about it, right? Like there's like a whole there's a whole process of that until it becomes acting. And again, I may be misattributing this or and I'm probably paraphrasing, but this is how I remember reading about it.

    You know, it takes a while for healed behavior to become second nature. And just being gentle with yourself on that path as you're doing, just being like, I'm not going to be perfect. I just did it the other day. Like I was like, why did you do that? Like, you know, whatever, you know better. But, but you recognize that you know better and you know, it will become more common with practice.

    Kelly: [00:49:21] Oh, yeah. I remember, this is about a decade ago, but I had just started kind of my healing journey, if you want to call it that. And I had to set a boundary for the first time, and I was fine. The person even took it fine.

    I got off the phone and sobbed for like an hour. It was, it was so hard for me and it did not feel good. Like it wasn't this, like, big reward that I thought that I would get maybe once I started to kind of heal. It's, it's a tricky journey that way.

    But the corkscrew analogy is the one that keeps me going. Because even when we like quote unquote mess up or whatever, nothing is lost. And recovery, you know, it's just another lesson.

    So even when you go down, you're going to come back up and it's just that's this constant walk we do.

    Nicole: [00:50:09] It's such a great way of looking at it. And you do. And women are conditioned if you set a boundary or you're not giving all the time that you're, you know, you're selfish, you're a bitch, you're not nice. That internal dialog is really hard to shut down. You know, you do.

    And one of my therapists had a great way of positioning it, which is, is it justified guilt or unjustified guilt? Is it justified shame or unjustified? Like, did you really do something mean to another person or wrong to another person that you need to feel guilty about? Like, do you need to feel shame for this?

    It was like, oh, so I try to run that filter through when I, when I have those moments where I'm like, you just said a boundary, you just said, no, I'm actually not in the mood for pizza tonight.

    Kelly: [00:50:51] And they said, okay, okay, okay.

    [00:50:55] Yeah, you didn't do anything wrong. You're not a bitch. You're not disagreeable. You're just like, that's not what I'm in the mood for at the moment. And that's perfect. But it is.

    It's hard breaking decades of, and also generational trauma, cultural trauma, the patriarchy. We won't go there right now. But yeah, all of that is, is breaking those cycles and it, and it's painful. And I've done the same where you're just like I don't really know. I have to go have a cry about this.

    Which is okay. You're going to process it.

    Kelly: [00:51:22] It’s an emotional shower. That's what I always say.

    Nicole: [00:51:24] I love that. That's awesome. Yeah.

    Kelly: [00:51:28] Well let's talk a little bit about where you are now. Can you tell us a little bit about the businesses? I mean, this is like you're not at Microsoft anymore, but now you're in your own world. So tell us a little bit about that.

    Nicole: [00:51:38] Yeah. So I left Microsoft in October of 21. And so I mentioned I was declared cancer free in June of 21. And I said I just need to stick my head in the sand. And I wasn't ready to deal with anything with the relationship. And I still thought there was hope and we could, you know, kind of make things work.

    But what did feel very life affirming to me in June of 2021 was to spend the summer thinking about, because I felt like it was time to leave Microsoft again. And it's such a wonderful company. They've lived, everywhere that I've been in my life professionally. You know, it's something that I've learned there or a skill set I've picked up. So.

    But I knew it was time to go out on my own again. And I knew that I wanted to do storytelling. And now I had the skill set to not just do written storytelling, written communications, brand marketing. But now I could do video, audio. I fell in love with podcasting, and I wanted to help others create podcasts, organizations and individuals. How do you create this and tell stories in this like, beautiful forum as you do and have done for so long, and this really intimate and personal way that resonates with people.

    So September, or October of 2021, I left Microsoft and I took three months off. And you talk about stopping.

    I was like, I just need to process what has happened to me, process what was happening in my relationship, what had happened to my body. We had moved. The pandemic was kind of starting to lift a little bit at that point.

    Process what had happened with this colleague I had worked with and just take a few months, which doesn't even seem like that long.

    But in January 2022, on 1/11, because I'm very into angel numbers, 1/11/22, I started my official journey, and I still work with Microsoft. They're still my clients. So I guess that's, you know, affirming. But yeah, podcasting audio storytelling is a big piece of it. And, and video scripting production, you know, helping executives, leaders telling their stories in these ways.

    And then in April of 22, as I mentioned, I started producing Here For Me, which is my own storytelling forum to talk about my I started out talking about my journey, you know, this is why I'm telling these stories. And then having other people on who have been through something life changing, life altering, what lessons have they learned about choosing themself?

    And that premiered in October, when we're just about to wrap Season Two tomorrow. And it has been and continues to be one of the most incredible journeys I've had to have this opportunity to have. As you do on your show, raw, candid conversations feel like people are craving it after the pandemic. Like, no more bullshit.

    No, let's put all of our shit out there, please. Because when you do that, I think everyone sees we're all more alike than we are different. We can find threads of continuity, and we can't heal without being honest about what we're going through. And you mentioned narcissism.

    I love that we're having this conversation about this because this is way more prevalent than anyone understands. And I think it's way more prevalent, as you said, in strong, smart, successful women who aren't supposed to be, in quotes, going through this.

    So yeah, you know, that's where I'm at today. I'm still in San Diego. I love it here. I am now divorced from my ex-husband and enjoying my life and enjoying myself and meeting people and having conversations and enjoying the sun and the beach and and very optimistic about what is ahead.

    It's the first time in my life, you know, I'm sure you have as well. I've had a few moments where I had opportunities to sort of realign. This is the first time that I'm like, uh, you actually found your path. It's very early, but we'll see, we'll see what's going to unfold.

    And so there's an optimism and a hope. As much as there has been sadness and grief along the way as well, there's definitely hope for what's ahead.

    Kelly: [00:55:29] I love that. I just had this question that popped up in my head. But what's something like, what's one thing every day you do to get back in touch with yourself?

    Nicole: [00:55:39] Um, I am music is my lifeblood. I’m from Seattle. So, you know, Seattle bands. I'm a rock and roll girl at heart. It is very important to me. And I blew my eardrums out basically as a teenager because music was therapy for me. I didn't even care. I was headphones, before headphones.

    So every day at some point and, and I talked about it on the first episode of Season Two of the podcast, how music was so key to healing. And I created a playlist for people if they want to listen. I was listening to it probably way too much, probably 20 hours a day. I had my AirPods in while I was grieving when I went through my divorce, but it was part of the process. So now though that is still. I have got to get music on. You live in Nashville?

    Kelly: [00:56:23] Oh yeah.

    Nicole: [00:56:24] You work in this industry, you understand this. Yeah. That is, that is how I get back in touch with myself.

    You know, I have bands and songs that just sort of help me get centered. And then that's where answers flow from. So AirPods go in or I'm driving in the car or, you know, I live in a in, a high rise building in downtown San Diego, so I can't blast music as loud as I would like to.

    I can't do that. I'm probably get thrown out.

    So yeah, that's every day there's got to be some music and I know when it happens and I will literally say out loud, I need tunes, I need tunes, I need tunes, and I just need or I'll go for a walk with my AirPods in and walk through downtown San Diego, walk to the Bay, get to Coronado. I walk in Coronado Beach a lot with, with headphones in so or AirPods in. So that's that's really key.

    Kelly: [00:57:12] Yeah, I love that.

    Every person I ask that question too has a completely different answer. And so I'm like, it's giving me ideas. I'm a walker too. So that's like one of the ways I really kind of recenter, even like I say this all the time on the podcast, 20 minutes is like game changing for my day or putting on good music. And sometimes I have to dance. That's like a really good reset.

    Nicole: [00:57:32] You know, someone told me once that, you know, Americans were like the only culture that doesn't really have dance. If you think about like Ireland, Africa, Mexico, Spain, you know, they all Argentina with tango, most cultures have some form of dance that is a way to connect and release. And for some reason, Americans kind of don't. But I'm with you. I mean, I have private dance parties all the time.

    Sounds like you do as well. And it's very, it's very, you know, grounding and centering. And you're walking outside, you know, you're connecting with the Earth. It's so important to do that.

    Kelly: [00:58:07] Yeah, and, and bringing you back to your body. I think that's especially because it's not like you go through a situation where you went through narcissistic abuse and you're not prone to it anymore, like it's always there. And so it's always there.

    It's something that you have to constantly work on within yourself. And for me, it's been developing a relationship with myself that I've never had before. So it sounds like that for you too.

    Nicole: [00:58:29] That is beautiful and I love that you keep grounding and keep centering.

    Kelly: [00:58:32] Yeah.

    Nicole, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to put all the links to her podcast, where else you guys can find Nicole, in the description of this podcast. But I just loved having this conversation and thank you for the work that you're doing.

    Nicole: [00:58:45] Thank you so much. It has been an absolute honor and a delight and you're a kindred spirit.

    So thank you for all the light that you put out into the world on your podcast and the work that you do.

    Kelly: [00:58:55] Thank you so much. Thank you guys for listening.

    Nicole: [00:59:01] Thanks to Kelly Henderson and the team at Velvet’s Edge, the Nashville Podcast Network, and iHeart for having me on and letting us run the episode for all of you. You can listen to Velvet’s Edge wherever you get your podcasts.

    Here For Me is produced by Lens Group Media in association with Tulla Productions. As is often said, it takes a village to make this podcast, and my deepest gratitude goes out to every person in that village. Our producers Dave Nelson and Stacy Harris, our audio editor, JD Delgado, designer and illustrator Amy Senftleben, and our production assistant, Sarah Carefoot. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you'd follow the show, rate, review, and share it with people you love. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook at nicolejchristie. Until next time, thank you so much for listening—here's to you being here for you and to the power of choosing yourself.

Nicole Christie
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