Caroline Donofrio | Knowing When to Quit, Pivot, or Pause

Written By Nicole Christie

Writer Caroline Donofrio returns to Here For Me to discuss the significant life events she experienced over the last year and what she’s learned about grief and burnout. She shares how she faced a decision to quit, pivot, or pause in her work and how it led to self-discovery and growth. She also shares insights on personal transformation, emphasizing the importance of quieting the noise to hear your inner voice, setting boundaries, and how saying no creates space for aligned, meaningful opportunities.

Show Notes:

  • [00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Here for Me, a podcast about the power of choosing yourself. I'm Nicole Christie, and I'm honored you're joining me as we talk about how life teaches us to put ourselves first. Because just as we say, I'm here for you to show we care for someone, saying I'm here for me to ourselves is the best form of self care.

    Today, I'm talking with writer Caroline D'Onofrio, who is our first repeat guest and I couldn't be more thrilled to have her back on the show. Based in Brooklyn, Caroline's work has been featured in New York Magazine, Elle, The Washington Post, Refinery29, and The Zoe Report. She's also the author of Best Babysitters Ever, as well as a collaborator and ghostwriter on memoirs, essay collections, and advice books by notable people, including the memoir Naturally Tan with Queer Eyes Tan France.

    I discovered Caroline's work over a decade ago on the [00:01:03] long running lifestyle site Cup of Jo and always felt a connection to her. Much of that has to do with her authentic, poetic prose that makes all her readers fall in love with her. But I'm happy to say that nearly two years after inviting her on here for me, she's someone I'm pleased to call a friend

    In her first episode, Caroline shared her most pivotal here for me moment, which we initially discussed as her experience on a 2005 reality show, but realized during the conversation was actually in 2021, when she started her popular sub stack newsletter, Between a Rock and a Card Place, as a means of connecting with others, and more importantly, her voice.

    In fact, it was her newsletter that prompted me to invite her back on the show. This summer, I was reading Between a Rock and a Card Place over dinner at my favorite Mexican restaurant here in LA, and I nearly choked on my chips and salsa when I read this line about the point we all get to with many endeavors: the one where we ask, do we quit, pivot, or pause?

    Caroline posed the question as a [00:02:06] segue to sharing with readers that she was going to take a break from the newsletter to rest and regroup, and I immediately wrote her and asked if she'd come back on Here For Me to explore this topic more broadly and in more depth. Caroline, welcome back to Here For Me.

    [00:02:21] Caroline: Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for that lovely intro. So nice. I like almost cried a little.

    [00:02:28] Nicole: It's all you. 

    So because we know each other fairly well now, I suspect this conversation will be a little bit more freeform than we normally do. Because we do these regular phone calls like every other month or something.

    And we just had one a couple of nights ago, we were on for like, two or three hours. But I love where our conversations naturally lead. And I know you do as well. But there are a few things I want to be sure that we touch on, particularly given the turns and what us tarot fans and you are not just a tarot fan but a reader and decades that you've studied tarot and you're doing readings now but we call them tower moments when everything in life sort of crumbles and gives us the opportunity to [00:03:09] rebuild.

    So you've had many tower moments since your last episode aired in March of 2023. So, I'm going to start with the most obvious ones. From just a year ago, in a span of weeks, you got married on Halloween of 2023. 

    [00:03:27] Caroline: That is correct. 

    [00:03:28] Nicole: Yes. 

    [00:03:29] Caroline: On Halloween, wearing horns. 

    [00:03:31] Nicole: And it was a really cool wedding. And we're recording this in mid-November of 2024. So happy anniversary, two weeks late.

    But you got married last year. You lost your dog, Mia, your constant companion of 16 years. And you lost your mother to cancer in November of 2023. So in the span of a month, three major things happened. And then just last month, so again, we're within the span of a year, you moved.

    And we hear about the most stressful life events, and you basically nailed a whole bunch of them in just under a year. And honestly, it's enough to make anyone want to quit, pivot, or pause a number of things in their lives. 

    Walk us through the last year. How has grief [00:04:12] unfolded for you? And what have you learned from it?

    [00:04:14] Caroline: I think the first thing I'd have to say is grief for me was not what I expected. And sometimes when I talk about it with people, I feel like I have to start by saying it really wasn't fun. And it really was sad because I think my spin on it is just, it's not that it was a positive. It certainly wasn't, but I think that there were positives.

    And that part really surprised me. I think going into it, I had a cinematic vision of grief and what it was and how it played out. And I thought there would be more wailing. I thought there would be more sort of staring at things, zombie-like and being unable to move. And I felt that internally, but it looked different than I thought.

    And I think the timetable as well, I expected it, you know, I would neatly march through the stages of grief. You know? And I think that wasn't the case for me. It unfolded in its own way, on its own timetable. And I think that [00:05:15] sort of taught me, a thing I don't particularly enjoy doing, was just to have to let go and let the process unfold and sort of let the feelings wash over.

    I remember before, you know, Mia and my mother were both sick. Mia was obviously very senior for a dog. And two years prior to their passing, they both had a hospitalization and were diagnosed, sort of like on the exact same timetable, during the pandemic and despite being two very different species, sort of had a similar thing. And so I think I was able at least to do a fair amount of pre-grieving, which I believe is real.

    So it's almost like the two years leading up to the actual losses were harder in a way and then the acute sense of grief. It's not that it was hopeful or inspiring, but the thing that surprised me about it the most was that there is something about death and something about loss. And certainly I mean that in terms of human life, but I also mean it in terms of any big life [00:06:18] change.

    There's something about it that puts everything in very stark relief in terms of this is what matters. And this is where I want to put my energy and this is where I want to put my life force. And I read a quote the other day and it said, "Your second life begins when you realize that you only get one."

    And I was like, Oh, that's what it is. And that's what it is. And I think that when you witness that, any profound loss or change, it is that really profound reminder, of it is finite. It does shift. 

    And the thing I've spent a lot of time thinking about is that, you know, the human stuff goes away. When we leave this earth, whatever you think happens or doesn't happen, whatever, the human stuff goes away, like the insecurity and the hang ups about appearance and the when I left the party, did someone say a mean thing about me, whatever, like all of that stuff is gonna go away because we are going to cease to be human. And that was such a great reminder that, in many [00:07:21] ways of what is worth focusing on and what is worth cultivating.

    [00:07:32] Nicole: All of that was happening, like you said, during the pandemic. 

    As we mentioned in your intro, you started Between a Rock and a Card Place, when we talked in your first episode, you were like, that's really my Here For Me moment to connect with people during that time when we were all still very isolated. I feel like that is almost like a manifestation of that realization, even though you're like, I just saw this quote recently, but you came to that realization of, this is my one life.

    How has the Substack been important to you through this grieving process, both the anticipatory grief that you have and then when you actually lost Mia and your mom? 

    [00:08:06] Caroline: I think behind the scenes, something that I was never fully open about in real time, is that part of the reason I started the Substack, I mean, on the one hand, I had been doing all of this writing for other people and other people's brands and other people's books and other people's publications and all this stuff.

    And so I loved the idea of [00:08:24] having this kind of throat clearing space where there was no one else lording over me and saying, you know, you have to keep it to this, you have to keep it to certain parameters. And I liked that, of just like total creative freedom and space. 

    But the other thing was I was going through this hard time behind the scenes and I never talked about it because I didn't want it to be like, Welcome to my death-themed publication. How was your Sunday? 

    And also my mother was very private so not a person I ever wrote about until after she had passed. And when she was sick she hardly told anyone in her life including people you know, that were close to her. So, not a thing I ever could have touched on in my writing, but I felt very alone.

    And obviously the pandemic compounded that in a lot of ways, and I feel like we were all sort of siloed in our little lonely space. So yeah, it was an incredibly important source for me of connection. 

    And even though there were things that I was not explicitly stating, to get to connect with people in real time [00:09:27] who are all going through their own versions of, of life, their own versions of challenges, their own experiences and sort of as these things unfolded in real time.

    What a tremendous gift to have people who can meet you where you are and you can meet them where they are. And that was fantastic. I don't know what I would have done without it. I think in a lot of ways the parts that have surprised me about grief being more positive in many ways were a direct result of having this space for connection and expression.

    [00:10:01] Nicole: Yeah, it was like, felt like a safety net. And I was saying in your intro how I discovered you on Cup of Jo, which is a blog known for its comment section and the support. 

    I just want to say to anyone who hasn't read Between a Rock and a Card Place, I feel the same way about the comments on your Substack.

    And so it wouldn't surprise me, it doesn't surprise me to hear that that's been a source of comfort because people shared their stories with you and you're so good about responding [00:10:30] thoughtfully and genuinely and authentically because that's who you are. 

    [00:10:32] Caroline: I try. Sometimes, I get overwhelmed. It's funny, I just want to say for anyone though who may be listening who has commented and I haven't replied, I just want everyone to know I read every single one and I love it every single one. And sometimes it's like, I'm getting all over my own head where I'm like, Oh my gosh, this person said a thing that's so nice. I really want to make sure that I, like, pour everything into this response. And sometimes I, I, if I don't respond, it's, it's really because it's my own sense of wanting to completely get back to every single thoughtful word in a way that is equally thoughtful.

    [00:11:05] Nicole: The safe space goes both ways. The beauty of having the compassionate readership you have is that I know that everybody knows you're reading it, knows you can't always reply, or maybe even like, because life is life. 

    So I think it was August that I read the newsletter where you were like, guys, I'm I'm going to take a pause on Between a Rock and a Card Place. It had been nine, 10 months since all of this stuff had unfolded in your life, the marriage, two big losses, and [00:11:33] you've talked about burnout a number of different ways. So I think most people can relate to that. It's like a hot topic just in our culture right now.

    [00:11:40] Caroline: Buzzword for sure. 

    [00:11:41] Nicole: Oh my God, such a buzzword. And I feel like I'm not surprised when people are at a midlife point when you hear about burnout, but you hear it from people even in their teens, twenties, thirties who are like, I'm burned out. 

    So, talk about the difference between the burnout you've experienced prior to this year, because there has been some of that, and then the point you got to in August where you thought about whether to quit, pivot, or pause, and made the decision to pause.

    [00:12:09] Caroline: I would say this is probably my second, and I'm defining burnout as you reach a point where, like I'm a runner, and in distance races there's this idea of bonking, which is when you get to a point where your legs are like, no more, I cannot continue. 

    So I'm defining burnout as kind of bonking for life. Similar to depression, where you're just like, I've lost interest, there's nothing inside of the well, I cannot keep [00:12:36] going, so a step further certainly than, um, you know, just like needing a tiny bit of a break. 

    So I think I've had two main instances of burnout. In both cases, it was the outcome of not listening to myself, of not checking in with my own feelings, not heeding my own limits, not giving myself space, not prioritizing my own needs.


    And also, you know, for an extended period of time, because I think inevitably in life, there are times when we do need to prioritize someone else. We do need to prioritize our job, but like hitting the snooze button. My previous case of burnout was different in that it did not feel emotional at all. It was the product of not saying no.


    Like, never saying no. No boundaries. Like, not even good boundaries, just no boundaries. So at that time, I was primarily earning my living via ghostwriting people's books. And I was on three different projects at [00:13:39] the same time. And through no fault of anyone's, it's just the schedules shifted, and they all kind of moved on to the exact same timetable,which was not supposed to be the case. 


    So I had three manuscripts that were due at the same time, and then I had three edits that were due at the same time, and these are, I don't know very busy people. It's hard to kind of nail them down and get everyone's schedules together. And, and a couple of things were a rush and this was during the heat of the pandemic

    so there was no outlet. 


    There was no social anything going on at that time. And I think, were that to happen now, I would have the wisdom to say, Hey guys, like this is not going to work. 


    But at the time I felt powerless and kind of forced myself to power through. And so at the end of that, I did hit a total wall of burnout and said no to any project that came my way. But that felt more like a physical burnout, intellectual burnout. It didn't feel emotional in nature. 


    I think this last case of burnout that you referred to where I said I needed to take a break in August [00:14:42] was, was different. Because from that previous experience, I think I did learn how to say no to some things, even if they were attractive or even if it might disappoint somebody.


    And I think in this case, the grief experience, for me, part of what surprised me so much about it was that it comes in waves, as people say. And that was certainly true, but I sort of expected these minor waves where I'm at the drugstore and I cry and it leaves. And I'm at the coffee shop and I feel deeply and then it leaves.


    But there were also major, more longer term ways. And I think for me, like, around when I hit the six month point and then around when I hit, I want to say the nine month point which coincided with needing to take a break, it would visit me in a bigger sense. 


    And I think because the nature of the newsletter, which I love very much, is emotional. There's a personal essay at the top of every Sunday newsletter, and that is something that has to come out of my person and out of my experience.


    And even if it looks, you know, [00:15:45] sort of short and easy enough to tap out, there's a lot of reflecting that goes into it and a lot of thinking that goes into it. And so I think I had not been giving myself the emotional space that I needed at that time. And so that was hard to accept because I have done this for a very long time, you know, for other people before I did it for myself.


    And so I think I just said, no, no, we'll power through, we'll power through, we'll come up with new stories, we'll come up with new angles. It's not a big deal. You can do it. And then I reached a point that felt very much like emotionally bonking where I would sit down to write. And it just was not, it was not going to happen.

    There was nothing in the well.


    And so I, I really did not have a choice, but to say, I need to step away for a while, and that was the right thing. My readership went…


    [00:16:50] Nicole: Really?


    [00:16:51] Caroline: Yeah. It wasn't like a huge mass exodus, but I definitely noticed. 


    [00:16:56] Nicole: Like people unsubscribing, or you just not seeing open rates and reading?


    [00:17:00] Caroline: No, people unsubscribing. And as part of my break, I did not allow myself to look at my numbers or my graph at all for that couple weeks that I was away. But I did, after the fact a couple weeks later, and I looked at the graph. And yeah, lo and behold, and I, I never know, because everyone has their own personal circumstances going on.


    Some people will write and say, you know, I'm out of work right now, I'm going through a hard time, or I'm trying to not look at my phone as much because of everything that's going on in the world, and I completely understand that. So it may or may not be directly related to the fact that it took a break, but it did take a hit.


    [00:17:29] Nicole: Well, it kind of segues into something about when you take a pause and you feel like it's a failure or you're being flaky, which I think you and I are both like, we'll give grace to people because of just the kind of people we are in the world and the things we've been through. But it can either trigger that of, like, I've let people down, right?


    And people pleasing tendencies go out of control. How much [00:17:51] of that versus the people that read my newsletter, I need you to have that grace. And if you're not that person, I guess you're not for me or that's not my audience. Talk about that dichotomy and what you do in your head when you see something like that.


    [00:18:05] Caroline: There's the ideal and there's the reality. And I would love to sit here and tell you, well, I'm so enlightened. So rationally I am, like, peace and grace. And I also truly believe, like, I would rather have a really engaged readership of people who want to be there and are enjoying it. So certainly I'm completely okay with that and I understand why it happens.


    [00:18:32] Nicole: How long does it take you to get to that point? 


    [00:18:34] Caroline: Well, rationally, I'm always there. Like, rationally, I exist there. The thing is the personal wounding. And that's why I go to therapy. Like, it's the personal wounding where I don't believe that it's necessarily because of anything I said or anything I did or anything I didn't do.


    Because so far there's [00:18:54] never been something where like, this issue hit and everybody left. It wasn't that. So I forgive myself and I forgive the people who leave for whatever reason. Because that's just, you know, that's natural. It is just the wounding. It just feels bad. 

    [00:19:09] Nicole: I always feel like, and this is no criticism of any other creative outlet or art form, but I feel like personal essay, which you do, and I do, and my solo episodes are kind of the same thing.


    There's no hiding behind an abstract painting. There is no, can you interpret these lyrics? I think there are other art forms that allow you to be more abstract. And so when someone leaves your readership or says something critical. It feels like a very direct attack because you are super clear about what you were experiencing or what your opinion was.


    I'm somebody that would feel the personal wound first and like, I'd be like, “MEH!” and then get to the, so I'm going to commend you for having the grace of like, I'm always there and then working through your personal wounding. I think people do that [00:19:57] in different orders. I've heard of people where they'll be like, Oh no, all grace. And then they have the delayed shame, or anger, or whatever the emotion might be. 


    [00:20:05] Caroline: Yeah, for me it's like, but why don't you like me? And I wish that that were not what I immediately jumped to, but it is. It, you know, it feels kind of akin to, like, you go on a date, and there's no chemistry, it's mutual. You know, it's not that you wanted them to like you, and then maybe the next day you get a text that says, I'm sorry,


    I just wasn't feeling it. And it bothers you anyway. It's that. You're like, this is okay. Like, I get it. I don't like you. You don't like me. It's not resonating. It's not in your budget right now. I get it. But it's like, it's that little sting of rejection that comes regardless, even though it's, it's okay.


    [00:20:38] Nicole: Yeah. So I love the concept of quitting, pivoting, or pausing. You are back. You took this break. How rejuvenating was it? Did you feel like when you came back and you were writing again, you were ready to go? You were like, I'm going to ease into it a little bit. 


    Just for people who are on the pause or the pivot side of things, [00:21:00] what was that transition back into something that brings you love and joy? And P. S. is also, you know, your job. 


    [00:21:06] Caroline: I did not come back and feel rejuvenated. I did come back and feel ready. I think those are maybe like different things. I'm still waiting to get back to feeling a little more rejuvenated. 


    But I think that was more of, so I took this break, and during the break, we needed to move. And so I took this break, and then immediately when I came back, we sort of needed to put the wheels into motion to move and to pack. 


    Had I known that, I would have timed it differently so that I could have had the break and the move happen together, but I didn't.


    So circumstances just kind of worked out where I was ready to write again, because you know, writing sometimes feels hard and difficult, but it always feels good having done it. So when I take any sort of break, it's nice to not have the pressure to sit down and produce, but I don't get the joy of having written.


    And so I was very ready to get back to producing and to having that lovely back and forth [00:22:03] with readers and that sense of connection. I think I'm almost back to the rejuvenation point where it will feel like it is emotionally fulfilling again. 


    [00:22:10] Nicole: I'm curious, just to unpack, I'm thinking in the listener's mind right now, of people who are like, okay, a new year is coming up and there are things in my life, whether it's a job or it's a relationship or it's a project, whatever it might be, I don't know if I'm feeling it anymore.


    Like something is saying maybe it's time to move on and they're listening and going, how do I know whether it's time to quit it, pause it, or pivot? What are some ways that you would recommend people tap in to know which way to move forward? 


    [00:22:43] Caroline: In my experience, it all comes down to quieting the noise.

    And the noise, to me, is anything that is not of you. So societal noise, any sort of external pressure, and making the space to hear how it feels. 


    We very often in society, [00:23:06] we think like, okay, but what about time? But what about money? But what about sunk costs? But what about opportunity costs? But what about all the people we might disappoint?


    All the expectations that are on me? And it's not that those things don't matter, but I think it is imperative, before you land on any of that stuff, to think in terms of your life force and what that is worth and where you are putting it.


    I saw something the other day and it was a Peanuts cartoon, and Linus. I think was saying to Charlie Brown, the price of anything is the amount of life that you exchange for it. 


    In terms of, you know, quit, pivot, or pause, I think it is a thing that I struggle with. Decisions can be very scary because we see them as sort of finite.


    And the flip side of that is there is generally room to readjust. There's a world in which quit, pivot and pause, [00:24:09] are the same thing with different branding. 


    Think of it as an adjustment versus like a hard stop. It's a realignment. So I think if we also give ourselves the grace to frame it that way, as something that isn't necessarily going to burn the bridge, we're not going to make or break you.


    It's just a moment to sort of realign your own beliefs with your actions and to check in and to say, how does this feel? Is it possible to adjust this in some way? 

    And if you do and that's not working out either, then you adjust it again. There's often some flexibility there, but it all starts with listening.


    [00:24:44] Nicole: And the idea of how much life are you exchanging for it is huge. We talked about, on Here For Me before, about how there's no detours. It's just part of the path and if you just sort of roll with it and go, okay, what am I getting from this part of the journey? Maybe it's an intentional slowdown. 


    I think people think of them as disruptions and like it's a problem and now I've knocked off my path and I've done something wrong and I have to get back to what I'm doing because that was the right thing.


    So I love the [00:25:12] idea of thinking of it as realignment. And how much life force are you giving to it? Also, this is something you and I have talked about before, but as we're discussing this and thinking people read your newsletter and there's wisdom in it that they glean and put into their own experience.


    They listen to this podcast, people that are on it like yourself and others who are wise human beings who have lived lives with lots of twists and turns, and they take wisdom from it. 


    I think one of the dangers of our society, I think we are calling it idol culture, and becoming so reliant on what people outside of us have to say.


    One of the things that we've discussed is fine tuning your own filter. How do you create a filter that's built on your own values and what's important to you? And it can be anything. It can be. your upbringing, political, religious, whatever it is that guides you in your life, spirituality, what you believe or want to see in the world, get rid of the noise.


    So some of it you can avoid, like you want to take a social media break or something like [00:26:15] that. But some of it's unavoidable because it's just out there, like in the zeitgeist. So how can people create that filter to put all that through and then go, what of it is for me and what of it I need to discard because it isn't going to actually serve me?


    [00:26:33] Caroline: The thing that's interesting, too, while you were speaking, I was thinking, like, I understand the appeal of idol culture. 


    [00:26:38] Nicole: Of course, because, you know, we all just kind of want a pill to take, right? 

    And to some degree, it's like, boom, I can take this person's advice and everything changes. Yeah, because it worked for them.


    [00:26:46] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, if someone had all the answers, or if someone has the aspiration and the wisdom and can give us, like, the step-by-step directions, like, I would absolutely buy that. 


    I think in terms of blocking out the noise, for me, at least, everything kind of starts with awareness. Because oftentimes we don't even notice the thing happening.

    We don't even notice the voice coming in. 


    We don't even notice the fact that, you know, we're about to press purchase on something that is going to arrive and it won't marketably change our lives, we're not gonna like it in seven [00:27:18] minutes. 


    So awareness is really the first step and I find that that comes naturally with just a little bit of a slowing down. Of literally slow the scroll, or slow your calendar, give yourself space where you're not necessarily in something looking at something.


    I've not really purchased a lot of things over the last year. Largely out of necessity because I stepped back to having a very freelance life and sort of like more of a barebones financial existence. 


    And so out of necessity I really have not bought a lot of things in the last year and I learned that I really didn't need to.


    So that was very instructive. It feels good. I mean it just, it feels great. Honestly, there's more physical space. It's very freeing, but I think that it took that happening out of necessity for me to really realize how much of the noise I had been consuming was telling me that a new XYZ would solve [00:28:21] some problem or provide some part of my identity.


    Or if I mix this powder into my drink in the morning, it would make me a different person in 17 different ways. And I'm not knocking any of that because there are things that enhance our lives, certainly that people need. 


    But I think a lot of it is marketing and a lot of it is selling. 


    And I even think, going back to that idea of idol culture, a lot of people, we've talked about, they maybe aren't credentialed, they maybe aren't experienced. How did they get there? 


    Oftentimes it's because they're marketable. You know, they're conventionally attractive or they appeal to some demographic and so they're anointed as such and we are like, oh, that sounds good. So I think awareness, certainly. 


    Boundaries is another good one, like not even interpersonally, but like I have a friend who has a rule where if she puts something in a cart, like a digital cart, it has to stay there for like a certain amount of time, if it's 12 hours, if it's 24 hours, whatever it is, there's no impulse purchase, and 9 times out of 10, it stays there.

    With a little space, there's like, Oh, I don't need that. 


    [00:29:21] Nicole: I have a rule when I go shopping and I'm trying [00:29:24] something on and I go, Well, I like this, but do I hundred dollars like it? Sometimes you're just like, No, I don't. That's one of my boundaries with spending. 


    But the digital cart is a good one too. Just leave it in there. Forget it's there. You don't want it. 


    [00:29:36] Caroline: So awareness wise, like a thing that I have become a lot more conscious of over the last year is, whatever voice I'm hearing of that's not good enough or you should get another one or you should try again, whatever it is, is sort of stopping and saying, whose voice is that?


    And it's almost never mine. It's my mother. It's a former boss. It's an ex-boyfriend. It's a commercial. It's, you know, an anointed person of wisdom telling me that I need to do something a certain way, and the realization of that helps me to stop and say what would I say? And what would I like? And what would actually serve me in this moment?


    What would feel good? And then sort of realigning again and making a choice from there. 


    [00:30:21] Nicole: That's a way to tap into the innate wisdom if I've ever heard it. On the episode right before you, [00:30:27] Lily Sais, she's an anxiety coach and her program is called Peace From Within. So if anyone hasn't heard that episode, go listen to it because that's her whole thing, is there are so many things we take on, whether it's some anointed idol or it's some product.


    And pretty soon we get into a spin of like, okay, I have to do all these things today. And again, not knocking anything that people need, but suddenly you have just this giant like morning routine or evening routine that's filled with things. And it's like, okay, what's actually serving me, exactly what you're saying. Whose voice is that is another one.


    And a question she and I talked about in our episode is, who profits from your shame? So it's like you were saying, this powder I’m stirring into my drink, and sometimes you really need that. So certainly we have to try things and decide what's resonating, what's not, or what's actually making us feel better.


    But it's one of the things I'm asking now, like, is it really terrible that I'm like midlife and I have wrinkles? Do I have to buy this serum? 


    And I think that's another way to tap into that wisdom. It's like, am I just doing this because it got pushed to me? [00:31:30] 


    And I love the idea of like, fine, I'm going to throw it in my cart. And let's see if I remember it two days later and, and how do I feel? 


    But I love that idea because there is so much noise from social media. There's so much noise from ads that were pushed and just silencing that, asking that question, whose voice is this? Clearing your calendar. All this innate wisdom.


    [00:31:51] Caroline: Who profits from your shame? No, that's good. I have to remember that. 


    [00:31:54] Nicole: Well, don't you feel like so much of this, and we could go on a whole capitalistic, patriarchal society. We could both go off on that forever and ever, but I feel like that's so much drive of like, you should feel bad about the fact that you had a traumatic childhood, but I have this thing that's going to fix it.


    You should feel bad that you have wrinkles in your midlife and I can fix it. And one of those things, do you really need to resolve? Yeah. Okay. Traumatic childhood. We should probably all talk about that if it's dysfunctional. 


    But just stopping and pausing. Do I need that? What would it involve? Does that resonate with me?


    Like, am I a person that wants to stir stuff into my coffee? [00:32:33] Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, but just asking yourself those questions. How many times someone recommends something and I used to be like, I'll try that. Sure. It seems like it worked for this person. Now I'm like, yeah, no, you know what? That's not a thing that I do.


    So, as we reflect on this conversation, Here For Me is about the power of choosing yourself. Reflecting on everything that you have shared and everything you have been through, which has been a lot in the last year, and since the listeners of Here For Me have heard from you, what is the most important thing you have done to choose yourself?


    [00:33:09] Caroline: Certainly I'm still learning how to do this, but I think the biggest thing is learning to say the word no. Really, that's, it's as simple as that, and to employ it liberally, and also reaching the understanding that every no makes room for a bigger yes. 


    So it's not just a finite door that closes, there's two sides to all of it. But also understanding that for a long time I was very afraid to [00:33:36] disappoint other people.


    And it never occurred to me that I also would be disappointed on the other side of something. And so incorporating that into the no, when the no is what resonates with me and is the answer that I wish to give, reminding myself that it may disappoint someone, but that my disappointment is also worth taking into account.


    [00:33:56] Nicole: Yeah, you are one of the people that can be disappointed. And then you're the only one that deals with the consequences of that. Like everyone else can kind of manage their own experience, but for you to be like, Oh crap, I shouldn't have said yes to this. 


    Something I've learned too, because I have the same tendency, is that when I've said yes to something that wasn't resonating with me and it should have been a no, I generally don't show up as my best self.


    It's like if you say yes to something and then you're like, crap, I didn't want to go to that. And so then you end up canceling the plan and you draw the boundary, but it's kind of late. It's like, uh, I disappointed them anyways, cause I canceled. 


    [00:34:33] Caroline: I think if you do something and you're not fully in it, or you're going to half ass it, or you're going to half heart it, like everyone winds up being [00:34:39] disappointed in that case.


    And that's not good for anybody. 


    [00:34:42] Nicole: And how many times have you said no and it's actually been very well received? Nine times out of ten I feel like the person's like, Okay, cool. Like, Oh, you're not mad. Oh, you probably… 


    [00:34:53] Caroline: Or they just don't care because it really didn't matter that much to begin with. And that's like the biggest light bulb. Yeah. 


    [00:35:00] Nicole: You had the right to ask me and you were able to take the no and you moved on with your life and everybody was better for it. 


    Well, Caroline Donofrio, thank you for being our first repeat guest. Thank you for coming back. We are always delighted to have you and your wisdom and just kudos to you. 


    I know this has been an incredibly challenging year and you've walked it with grace, but I know that it has not been easy.


    So I know it has, it's been hard, but you just show up with such grace and beauty. So thank you so much for being you.


    [00:35:39] Caroline: Thank you.


    I'm so grateful to Caroline Donofrio for joining us [00:35:42] again, and being candid about the myriad ways her world has been turned upside down over the last year. 


    She's met these moments with honesty, vulnerability, and grace, mostly for herself, by acknowledging grief when it hits and acknowledging that it often doesn't hit as expected.


    She's allowed these moments to transform her by slowing down and going within. As she said, it's important to recognize these moments as an adjustment versus a hard stop. As something that isn't necessarily going to burn the bridge, not going to make or break you, but as a moment to realign. 


    We've talked on this podcast about tower moments, those times when life as we know it crumbles to the ground. It's usually a series of great challenges or losses, often in short order, as Caroline has experienced. No one is spared from these—from grief, trauma, doubt, or fear. 


    But it's my [00:36:45] belief and my experience that our job is to let them bring us to our knees. To not simply get to the other side and remain as we are, but to let these moments squeeze and nearly suffocate us so we're reshaped into the best form of ourselves. To recognize that sometimes we're beaten down so we have no choice but to rise up. 


    But what if rising up is, in fact, stopping? Whether it's a pause, a pivot, or a full-on quit, realigning our lives, reshaping ourselves often involves releasing. Letting go of what was to make room for what will be. Trusting that some things are forever,

    some are for a season, and some things last, but evolve as we honor the ways they need to be reshaped into the best form of themselves. 


    And encouraging us to think of quitting, pivoting, or pausing as an opportunity to come into greater alignment. Caroline shared she'd recently seen a “Peanuts” [00:37:48] cartoon featuring the words of, as it turns out, Henry David Thoreau:

    "The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it". 


    From that perspective, I believe the highest price you'll pay is that of resistance. Resisting what needs to change. Equating pivoting with aimlessness and quitting with flakiness. When in fact you know deep down that something has run its course.


    It's one of the many things I admire about Caroline, that she allows herself to quiet the noise, which she defines as anything that is not of you. Anything outside yourself that demands you keep going for the sake of staying the course or meeting others expectations, when the voice inside you says you've exchanged enough life for this.


    At least in its current state, for now…or forever. 


    This is the point I've come to with Here For Me. After five seasons and 52 episodes—an ironic [00:38:51] number as this year, 2024, marks my 52nd on the planet—we're going to indefinitely pause production.


    This season we scaled back from biweekly to monthly episodes, largely so I could quiet the noise. With more room to breathe, I had more room to think. 


    I didn't fill that space with client work or new projects or socializing. I just sat with it because I felt my heart trying to tell me something. 


    When I gave it my attention, it said it was time to focus on other things. Other creative outlets that have been waiting in the wings for a very long time. Things I've dabbled in here and there for decades, but never fully embraced, feeling it wasn't the right time, the right outlet, even though I always knew it was the right thing for me to do during my time on earth. 


    Like all humans at a pivot point, I tried to talk myself out of it. By all metrics, Here For Me is hitting its stride: record downloads, soaring [00:39:54] social media engagement, our second Voice Arts Award nomination in as many years.


    My brain asked, “WTF?” And my heart calmly responded, “Y. E. S.”


    Five seasons in, you know by now that I'm a big fan of letting the heart lead. It's what it means to choose yourself, to live in accordance with the tagline of this podcast. It usually makes very little sense. And that's exactly how, you know, it's right.


    Continuing on this path feels logical given all the momentum. It's following what's known and certain, what's rewarded and recognized. 


    Stepping off the path is a leap into the wild unknown, but I know it is not a wrong turn. 


    Every time I've leapt with closed eyes and an open heart, I've landed somewhere even better than I imagined. It hasn't always been without pain or fear or worry. It hasn't always been economical. It hasn't [00:40:57] always been filled with quick wins. But it's always been the next best step. The one that positioned me for growth. For evolving in the ways my tower moments intended to reshape me. 


    I hope this pause of Here For Me does justice to the show's title.


    I also hope it's permission for you to let go of something that no longer serves you. Permission to say, for now, and maybe forever, if you need to make space for a new crop without entirely clearing the field. 


    Permission to choose yourself, to honor your instincts and trust your gut. 


    Permission to fine tune that filter for advice and influence so only what's aligned with your beliefs and values remains for consideration. 


    Permission to let your heart speak to you and to listen. 


    Permission to let it lead you, knowing the difference between heart and ego. 


    The ego will lead you astray and fill the journey with struggle as you chase what's outside you. [00:42:00] But the heart will lead you to alignment and fill the journey with a calm sense of knowing as you chase what's inside you, that which you know is true. 


    It's one of my greatest joys and honors to create this show, to share my story of choosing myself, and those of 45 people over the last five seasons who did the same, because hardship forced it, or they simply stood up and said, no more. 


    The candor, vulnerability, and emotion of those conversations is what I'd like to see more of in this world. It's how I believe we come to understand we're more alike than different, and that choosing ourselves isn't selfish, but is in fact how we come into alignment with who we are, which is the greatest gift we can give ourselves and others, the one that leads us to our path and our purpose, the one intended for us from our very first breath. [00:43:03] 


    This episode of Here For Me was produced by Tulla Productions in association with You & Me Media. My deepest gratitude goes out to our producer, Courtney Acuna, our editor, J.D. Delgado, our production assistant, Sarah Carefoot, and designer and illustrator, Amy Senftleben. I also want to thank everyone who has been part of the Here For Me team along the way: Dave Nelson, Stacy Harris, Amy Kugler, and Amanda McGonigal.


    If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you'd follow the show, rate, review, and share it with people you love. You can also follow me on Instagram and YouTube at nicolejchristie and find show notes and transcripts for all episodes at hereformepodcast.com.


    From every corner of my heart and with deep gratitude, thank you so much for listening. Whether you've been with us from the beginning, or this was the first time you tuned in, I'm truly grateful to you for taking the time to do so. It [00:44:06] tells me you are on the right path, that you understand the power of aligning with what's meant for you. So thank you for being here, for being here for you...and always to the power of choosing yourself.

Nicole Christie
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Lily Sais | Finding Peace From Within